This entry developed from a series of e-mails following Mookers’ post “hello.” Her words are in green and mine are in blue.

hi! I just wanted to let you know that I'm really grateful for the entry you wrote, which I just posted at caged-freed. the only rule I think you missed was something I wanted to ask about. numbers (like weights) are blocked out, and I'm really intrigued by this one part of your entry that's all number signs. it doesn't seem to mean much with the numbers taken out, and I wonder what it means to you with them there...what were you trying to talk about with your weight? because I think it's a definite tendency of people with eds to say the numbers instead of the things we think make them matter, and I honestly do wonder what they mean for you.

the other part of your entry that surprised me was when you talked about the pro-ed communities that you belong to. I've never heard of anything like what you described, and I was wondering if you could elaborate on that, either in another entry, or just to satiate my own curiosity by e-mail. I don't mean to pry; it's just another (important) perspective, that I didn't know there was. what is it that the people in these communities understand? what makes your involvement in this pro-ed community different from that of someone younger in another one? these aren't questions I knew to ask before your entry, and I'd like to thank you for planting them in my brain. please feel free to write more (on these or any other subjects) and submit again. take care, and I wish you all the best.

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oops! sorry about the numbers! i really didn't mean to break the rule. the numbers in a way to me, symbolize the depth of how sick i am. the lower the number- the more sick. sick might not be the best word.... maybe more consumed by my ed? but i'm not sure that's right either. ugh. hmmm... now you've got me thinking! i guess in a way- it's a sign of "proof" to me? proof of what- i'm not sure. as awful as i know this will sound, i think the numbers reassure me and comfort me. like having my ed does. it's mostly about coping skills, the ed is my way of "coping" with things.

i understand your question about my communities and such. it's not that they're much different than the younger sites. i mean the common bond is there. but, we don't share tips on purging, or anything like that. we are just supportive of each other and share the same pain of dealing with eds for most of our lives. i know of some younger sites discussing things like [methods of worsening their eds], and really dangerous things like that. it scares me that these girls do things like that. and i just stay away from them. i'm not trying to put them down, or say that they don't have the same problems as me. i feel sad for them, and i wish i could help them. but i can't. my involvement in the comms i am a member of, is supportive. the younger girls support each other too- i know that. it's hard to explain i guess, since i can see where it would seem like i'm being judgmental of the younger girls on their sites. i'm not, and i know that a lot of woman are members of the younger comms. i just can't stand seeing these girls go down the same road as me. so i choose to go to places where there are people my age that have been down that road already.

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don't worry about the numbers. it's really not so much a rule as a safety precaution. there's no harm in having written what you did, though I'm sorry that the numbers symbolize how sick you were/are and that proving how sick you were/are is so important. I know that importance. I've felt it myself...

so, if we were going to do this one question at a time, I would probably ask, why is it that you *have gone down* this path (past tense, no U-turns) while others *are going down* this path (present tense)? what do you see that says young girls you've never met deserve to never have this pain, but the rules or the realities are different for you? and yes, that's two questions, but I kind of mean it as one... pretend it's just a run-on sentence or something, ok?

and I really am sorry if this is prying. you definitely have the right to be like, "ah, strange girl! I don't want to be talking to you anymore!" your words just raise interesting questions for me, and you seem to have interesting answers. plus, I'll admit, without even knowing you, I think you deserve to not be in as much pain as you are. I'd basically guarantee that. but I know how little it means, when it isn't what you hear in your own head. take care.

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lol! ok- i'll go with the run-on sentence!

i'm not exactly sure why i have gone down this path... there are a hundred reasons probably that i could give, but none of them seem quite right. i mean, i could say- well my childhood sucked, my dad wasn't around- i'm seeking approval, etc. but in reality- i don't really believe that. i'm not saying that other's can't or don't have those reasons. and maybe, all together- they are my reasons. i just know that at an early age i felt a need to be perfect. now that i'm thinking about it- yes, there are a ton of things that have brought me here. but mostly- it's all because of me. my inability to accept things about myself or my world- i need control. when i can't control things around me, well i have to control something. it's more than that, but i don't want to lose you with the twists and turns i take while explaining things-lol.

ok- i really don't think anyone deserves this pain. nobody. it hurts when i see young girls self-destructing. you know? i want to take them and make them see how important they are and how horrible this is to live with. now- as for me, i know all the things that are wrong with me. and i tend not to worry about myself. i worry about the harm that others are doing to themselves and the hurt they go thru. don't get me wrong- i can be really selfish and self-pitying. lol. and, i have a sick sense of humor about my ed. but, i have to- otherwise i'd go insane!

ok- strange girl (lol), i hope that i managed to answer your questions! and, it's ok that you're asking questions. thank you for saying that i don't deserve this. ok- i can't remember (memory of a gnat) have you gone thru an ed? are you? i'm curious too!

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ahh, turning the tables on me, hey? :) no, that's fine. I do have an eating disorder- basically "bulimarexia" - symptoms of both bulimia and anorexia. I'm in recovery, something I thought was impossible, and I've been abstinent from bulimic behavior for just over 18 months. the anorexic stuff is harder to gauge (restricting is sneaky, you know? you don't always know you're doing it), but I'm currently doing well with that, too. it's been a really hard road. like I said, I didn't believe that I could do this. and I spent the first eight months after my diagnosis proving that (despite the fact that I really was trying.) after 8 months, I was placed in the best residential program ever (ok, I'm biased- but this place was gold) and even though I still didn't believe I could get better, I started to. I spent about three months there, and my whole life is different because of it. I owe my life to this process, and to the people who helped me, and it's just really amazing to know that, to be living that life. Even though it's hard as hell sometimes (still...)your reasons sound pretty similar to mine and to some I've heard from

other sufferers. one thing I will say is that those reasons are completely valid. those needs- to be safe, to be in control, to have secure support, etc- are totally valid. I thought recovery meant being well, being able to do things all on my own, not having needs. it's completely the opposite. (thank goodness.) it's sort of about meeting my needs in new ways, ways I didn't know when I started using this ed.

and I have to say, as different, as subhuman, as I felt for most of my life, I can't see the "difference" between you and those girls you want to see live a different life. I think you deserve a different life, too. I don't think anyone can live with this, or should have to. and I think you'd be surprised how supportive people in recovery can be. the communities that I've been in (on- and off-line) are by no means policing my recovery, telling me whether or not I'm doing it well enough, fast enough, in the right way. it's similar, I think, to what you describe; we're all grateful to have people who understand whatever ed lines are running through our heads on a certain day...the focus just shifts, eventually, from what those voices are and how they make us feel to what we can say back. I've always wondered how pro-ed communities are supportive. I'm not saying they aren't, but it's like you say- I can't imagine ever supporting someone's illness because I want so badly for people to know how much they're really worth and what their lives can really be. so how do you support each other without challenging the ed? I mean, how do you befriend people and hold onto them and care about them, and not ...um... basically hate...their eating disorder? I know what a two-sided thing this is. That whole "this eating disorder saved my life and is taking it away" thing. I just know that the best support I've received is from people who treated me with love and respect and understanding (including understanding why I had this illness and felt a need to continue having it) but still pushed me to work through it. It almost sounds like the communities *you're* in aren't so much "pro-ed" as they are supportive of people with eds, without pushing them to change anything. am I off? I'm just curious, I guess. and if you've never been diagnosed, I'm guessing you've never tried recovery...? I don't mean to be pushy; I know how crazy this whole experience is. I just...I just know that everything good I have in my life, I have because of recovery. and it makes me biased; it makes me want that for everyone else. like, maybe you aren't an unhealthy weight (maybe you are, I don't remember the number and I don't know your set point), and maybe you aren't doing the most dangerous things, but it still doesn't let you live. when I was hospitalized, I didn't think they'd let me stay (I thought I'd be "found out" - that I wasn't really sick, I was lying) because I wasn't that thin, and I wasn't "that sick", and so forth. I found out later, the staff didn't expect me to stay because I was *so sick.* even at a basically healthy weight. my thoughts and my (long buried) feelings and all that were so drenched in sickness. my good news is that I did stay, and miraculously ... got better almost in spite of myself.

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ok- i wanted to say too- that i think it's AWESOME that you have gone over 18 months w/out purging! you should feel great about that! as i'm sure you do.. and yeah i know restricting can be sneaky. just about everyday, my hub asks me what i've eaten, and i have to think about it. and usually the answer is [below a healthy amount]. but i still feel like i've eaten the house! ugh. ok- i didn't post my present weight. i can't stand saying it or writing it. it's healthy- i know. but a little "too" healthy i think. it's just an icky number. of course- my hubby's friends tell him "hey- it's nice to see that staci doesn't look like a crack-whore anymore". which i know is a compliment, but i hear "hey- staci's fat". you know? it's hard. and i honestly thought i was “recovered" once upon a time... after i had my son. I was so into being a mom that i just felt good. of course, the voices were always there, it was just easier to ignore them i guess. we also lived with my hub's parents, so i had nothing to do except be a mom. i didn't have any stress of real life. i guess that's when everything came back- when we moved into our own house. ugh- i'm babbling. i have done dangerous things. i was taking laxatives and purging […#…] for awhile, drinking dieter's tea, living on coffee... etc. i'm sure i still would be, but everybody caught on. in a way- it makes me mad. but at the same time, i know the damage those things can do. so- you were in a treatment place huh? i'm glad it was a wonderful place, and not one of those nightmares you hear about. can i ask how they diagnosed you? i mean, what made them do it? did you miss your period? that seems to have always been the one thing that i have always had- no matter what my weight. and ya know- since i still had that, i wasn't "really" anorexic. I too would have to say i'm a mixture of both. now, anyway. when i was younger- i was purely anorexic. but, now i have the feelings, stress, actions, and tendencies of both. never been diagnosed. my shrink knows about my ed, but my thought has always been that if he thought i was really sick- he would do something. ya know? so, in a weird way it's like i don't have an ed, even tho i know i do. that makes no sense. i feel like i'm going to drag you down talking to you about all this. i want you to keep being ok in your recovery. i just know that so many things can be triggering, and i don't want to trigger you. i'll keep talking to you and i'll answer just about any questions you want, as long as you promise that i'm not going to make you backtrack. ok?

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thanks so much for continuing to indulge my interest and for the affirmation about the eighteen months. it's definitely a weird thing to verbalize (or type ;)) - it still doesn't seem quite real. but it is real, and it's amazing, and I appreciate your concern about pulling me back into something else. actually, talking with you is really good for me because (have I mentioned?) I'm also codependent and hugely caretaking, the (non-obvious) problem with which is that I'm also very relational and like talking with people about what's real for them...so if I learn how to set those boundaries, how to stay in the conversation without trying to save the person, that's really good for me. it's still a hard line to draw, though.

the one thing that would be helpful for me, I think, is if you didn't use numbers. it's still really hard for me to read that, and I hope if you decide not to, you can find another way to convey how sick you've been because I really don't want to take that away from you. it's your right to communicate how much you have been and are in pain... so just... do what you can.

that's ...annoying (to me) that you see a psychiatrist and he doesn't say anything to you about your ed. ugh, I've had doctors tell me that it was just a phase, etc, but no one (medically - plenty of people in my life) just ignored it completely. that's frustrating because, on the one hand, your response makes so much sense. "if it were bad, he'd do something" and on the other, so many doctors are ignorant about eds, and in some ways, you need to initiate your own recovery, so sometimes people don't say anything because they need to know you want it. I don't really agree with that (in case you haven't noticed, I'm kind of all about recovery) because I know how little time a person can have, and I think everyone deserves to get into recovery as soon as possible... I lost a friend (my roommate from the hospital) to this disease, and since then, I think I've lost track of how difficult it is to start recovery. I remember, of course, and at the same time, this girl I loved so much fought so hard and wanted it so badly ... and she's still gone. so it's hard for me to understand when people say they aren't ready. I was never ready. I wasn't ready when I was diagnosed, or when I was hospitalized (I didn't even believe I had an eating disorder...) but I think I saw in the hospital how amazing some of the girls who were nearing discharge were, how much better their lives were, and I felt that and started to want it for myself. so even though I still didn't believe it was possible for me, I started trying. ...well, that, and I thought everyone would hate me if I didn't "follow the rules" and eat like I was supposed to. not the best reason in the world to start eating! ... but hey, I started, nonetheless.

oh, and that period thing? god, I so hate the diagnostic manual. I never lost my period. so despite the fact that I wasn't allowing myself basically any food, I wasn't "anorexic" by their standards. to my therapist, my psych, my nutritionist, I was/ am anorexic (and bulimic.) they know that it's a disease of thought processes and emotional issues, as well as behaviors, and they weren't going to sit around and wait for my life to be in ever-greater peril before helping me. I guess what I'll say is that the standards of the insurance companies and the standards of the best doctors are very different. no one ever told me I was anorexic, which was a very good way to keep from believing it. but...I needed to get help. and that meant getting help for whatever was wrong, no matter what we labeled it.

the truth is, there's more to my illness than an eating disorder anyway; everyone's problems are more unique than the diagnostic manual allows them to be. and at the same time, I have never met one person who fit, entirely, the diagnostic criteria for an eating disorder. (and I met probably 30-50 people with eds in the hospital, so...yeah.) most people had symptoms of anorexia and bulimia, most people were very, very sick, and most people would never have been hospitalized if the insurance company had been the ones examining them. it's awful, but true.

wow, I tend to rant on that. so...if I were going to ask something else...(sick of this game yet?)...I want to know what would be different, for you personally, between a recovery community and the type of support community you're in now. I know that, for me, I was terrified that this was not something I could do, not something I could give up, and that people would be pushing me and watching me fall flat on my face, and giving up on me, abandoning me, and so forth. I was so sure of that...*sigh* (actually, they were really supportive. I guess I downplayed the fact that people who work with or are recovering from eating disorders are used to eating disorders. they don't expect you to poof! not have one...or to even completely *want* that, in the beginning. I don't always want it now, though it scares me to say so.) ...but what's it about for you? what's the difference between suffering from an eating disorder and recovering from one?

and wow, that's a huge question that I should probably throw back in my own court. I'm almost sorry to lay it on you...but you know, you always have the right not to respond. I don't think I know the full answer (for myself) even now...take care of you...

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it's kind of funny- i look forward to your email everyday! i like that you are challenging me to think more about everything. and, i will do my best to leave out #s and i won't talk about anything specific that i do or have done. we'll just talk about all the feelings and that kind of stuff. i have to say that i admire you for being in recovery.

to answer your question- the difference between suffering and recovering would be that i think of recovering as actually living life. being "normal". suffering with an ed is hardly living it up! lol. i would like nothing more than to not worry about ed related bs even if for one day. you know? but i'm not sure that even recovery could bring that. i mean, i imagine that you still have the thoughts- you just have to ignore/fight them? i'm not sure. i did read "wasted" and it seemed that way to me- how she described it. have you read that book? if you haven't, i wouldn't recommend that you read it now.... it's very powerful and triggering. but yeah- i think that one of the reasons people are afraid of recovery is that it means that they have to deal with life and live life. i know that's a big thing for me. recovery means no more "hiding" from the world. does that make sense? ya know- it frustrates me too that my shrink ignores my ed. he actually believed me the last time i went and i told him i was "better", i mean, he does ask questions- i have to give him that. but "how's your eating" doesn't make me feel like it's a big deal to him. you know? lol. i'm glad that you had/have such wonderful people around you to help. i don't know how old you are, and it doesn't matter, but i was just wondering if you're married? i guess if you're 13- then i'd be concerned if you are....lol! what i am getting at, is it must be great to have that support that you have (i'm assuming you still have it-lol). my husband just yells at me to eat and things like that. you know- it's really frustrating because i've had countless convos with him trying to get him to understand that this is all mental, and it just manifests itself thru food issues. but he doesn't get that i guess. i know he worries, but man, sometimes i could punch him! lol :)

i have a question for you- do you think that w/out being in the hospital you could have gotten as far as you have with recovering? and, as for your co-dependant care-giving thing, i have a touch of that too.

:) ok- i have one more question- it kind of ties in with my other.... do you think that recovery is possible without treatment?

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you asked a really hard question about treatment and recovery. the thing is that everyone needs different support in recovery. I know a woman about ten years older than I am (oh, and I'm 18 by the way...well, technically - mentally I'm like 30 and emotionally, I'm about 5) who has been abstinent from ed behaviors for years, and she hasn't seen a therapist/ psychiatrist in some time, but she still meets with her nutritionist regularly. I've been avoiding my nutritionist (not an entirely bad thing at this point) but can't imagine not having my therapist. so obviously, people need different things. but I can stop beating that into the ground and just give you my opinion, eh?

I guess I don't think it's possible to recover without treatment because I don't think it's possible to recover without really good support, and the type of support a person needs as they face something so huge as this ... I just can't imagine a family member or friend who could provide that. who could simultaneously understand, challenge, comfort, listen, and so forth. it's such a difficult thing to be in a relationship with someone who's sick (and for people - like your husband - who don't understand, the attempts to "help" are so often the opposite of helpful), and I guess I just feel that to have someone who you don't have to protect, whose entire role is to support you and help you get back on track, takes the pressure off of you and of those who love you. also, I don't know about you, but I told myself several times when I was actively sick that I was officially "quitting" the ed behavior, or tapering it down until it stopped, or something...and it never quite stuck. part of me is biased by my experience. I tell people that I could not have gotten better without going into the residential program I did. That could be true: a lot of my issues are about not having had a supportive, safe, consistent "home" to grow up in, so living in a place as supportive as that hospital was healing on a level far below the work we did consciously. It could also just be the fact that I didn't get better in the eight months I spent working outpatient, so I assume I never could have. Or maybe I needed to be away from my parents. Or the town I lived in then. I don't know. I don't think everyone needs residential. I think everyone needs someone who will treat them like a valid human being, understand and help them replace their ed - sort of balance the pushing and the hugs...if that makes any sense...?

Part of it isn't that it's necessarily impossible; it's more like, it would be *so difficult* to do this on your own. It's *so difficult* with help. so why not take it?

one great thing about recovery is that it's really individually defined. (I'm assuming you like to be in control...:)) trying recovery, choosing who you want to work with, how often you want to work with them, how much you're willing to do at a given point - it's all up to you. I have seen some really awful therapists in my time, and I have to keep in mind a friend's perspective that all these doctors are "the hired help"...and it doesn't take much for them to be the "fired" help. ;) you know yourself best, (even if it's very little, at this point) so you find the care that's best for you, which is nice. eds are so hugely painful; it's important to feel safe with the person you see, I think.

the other part- which I meant to say- is that your definition of recovery at any given point can be what you need it to be. sometimes, my definition is never doing anything eating disordered again, but that doesn't last long because, well, it's terrifying. I mean, pressure! sometimes, my definition is focused solely on normalizing my eating (when I've gotten off track.) sometimes it involves working through difficult feelings or living a normal life like you said. but the thing I never really believed until I lived it is...no one can take this disorder away from you, and most people don't want to. (except that they're scared of what it does to you.) no one wants to throw you into the scariest version of life with no way to cope. so, recovery for me - usually means that I take a closer look at what I'm thinking or feeling, and why I'm thinking or feeling it. and then working, really slowly, to replace those thoughts and behaviors. I wish I could explain how different it is from being stripped of your coping method. in recovery, you get to have every need and feeling and fear that you have now, but you learn new tools to manage them. and no one does it perfectly or right away (not even close.) so in the end, it's more of an upgrade than a replacement. you're never left with nothing. you trade thoughts which have worked but brought you pain, for ones which work and bring you peace. and that's a pretty rocking deal, from my perspective.

I do remember the fear, though. and I really feel for you on that point. all the more reason to have support; the beginning is *so difficult.* (because you have the least experience with handling things. as it goes on, life is just as hard, but you become more and more equipped to handle it. it stops feeling like torture.) as for me, my support system right now is very limited (well, actually it's more, "long-distance" ...I have many very supportive people who live a few too many states away) ... I'm with my parents, who really try, but aren't dependable, helpful supports, and we live- currently- in an extremely rural area away from where I went to school. (I'm homebound now, finishing up my senior year.) so, it's basically me and my therapist. eek. but he's *really, really* good, and I'm not who I was two years ago; I have a lot more tools than I did then. so it works ok. and as soon as I learn how to deal with some phobias (oh did I mention anxiety? ok, here's the list- I'll get that out of the way: ed, anxiety, depression, codependency, self-injury, and grief...not

that the last is an illness/ addiction so much- just a big thing to deal with) I'll find a more supportive situation. in the meantime, "I get by with a little help from my friends..."

gosh...I can go on! my keyboard is probably exhausted. :)

take care, Mary

p.s. I never read Wasted because I was afraid it would be triggering. but I did read a lot of books on eating disorders. they all seem to be a couple hundred pages of sickness and maybe ten about recovery. I think that's crazy. everyone with an ed knows the horror story of what it's like. I'd share the recovery part, personally...I'd be disproportionate in the other direction. :)

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i would have written sooner- but i've been in not the greatest frame of mind lately. and i worry about if i affect you negatively so, i didn't want to write and let it out on you. if that made sense! lol

you know what? i think that support is key to recovery as well. you're right. because without support- where can you turn when that "bad voice" pops into your head? i'm thinking of asking my shrink if he knows of any ed specialists when i go in wed. it's not recovery, but i guess it's a step. i have been living with this for so long- that i'm really scared to let it go. but, at the same time i feel like i have to let it go to live. ugh.

oh- i wanted to let you know- you can post any of this if you want. who knows- maybe our convo will help somebody? or at least give them a perspective that they didn't have before.

i'm getting ready for bed, but i wanted to say hi. lol- i missed you the last couple days! it's hard for me to believe you're only 18- you are so past me in maturity! lol! and, just to ease your mind- life after 18 is much better than life before 18. i wouldn't go back if somebody paid me! i know everybody always says that your teenage years are the best years of your life- but that's a crock of shit. the only thing that i miss is having no responsibilities. but other than that- nope, wouldn't go back for the world. i hope that helps you a little. i've been there, and it was scary for me too, so i understand. if you need to vent about that or anything else- just know i'll listen. and i'll most likely understand.

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I don't have much time now, but I just wanted to tell you I think it's wonderful that you're planning to ask about an ed specialist. That's a tremendously brave and difficult thing to do. Also, I'm not sure how much of a difference there is between recovery and those "little" steps. You take enough of them; you find yourself at a pretty good distance from where you were. I wouldn't consider myself "recovered" (in part because I have further to go and in part because it'd completely freak me out) but I am where I am because of those "steps." And just over two years ago, I was seeing my first therapists and doctors to discuss this ed, terrified of what that meant, and certain that not only was it impossible for me to get better, I maybe didn't even want to...It's terrifying to consider letting go, especially when it's become such a huge part of your life. (Although I think maybe you'll find it's keeping you from life more than it's giving you one.) But, eh, why rush things? Just take care, and breathe, and write again soon.

I'll be thinking of you Wednesday and hoping for the best. Be gentle with yourself, alright?

Mary

p.s. I appreciate that you didn't want to pull me down; I really do...but I hope you'll understand that it's my job to look after me...to know when I can't handle something, to make sure I stay safe, etc. so write when you need/ want to! and I'll look after me.

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